ATD: All Things Divorce
Join Founder of Merel Family Law Jonathan Merel and his guests as they talk through everything from divorce, relationships, legal miscues and pop culture on ATD: All Things Divorce.
ATD: All Things Divorce
Navigating Divorce: The Revolutionary Role of a Divorce Coach
The traditional family law approach is being revolutionized, and this groundbreaking conversation between attorney Jonathan Merel and certified divorce coach Kristina Lindsay reveals exactly how. As possibly the nation's only family law firm with an in-house divorce coach, Merel Family Law is pioneering a more holistic approach to divorce representation that addresses both legal needs and profound emotional challenges.
Kristina shares her journey from domestic violence advocacy to high-conflict divorce coaching, explaining how she bridges critical gaps in client care. "What a divorce coach does is really we're an expert guide, to walk alongside somebody in the process," she explains, helping with boundaries, co-parenting strategies, and the overwhelming emotional burden that attorneys aren't trained to handle.
The episode takes a deep dive into the realities of high-conflict divorces, particularly those involving domestic violence. Kristina's certification in lethality risk assessment allows her to recognize when a situation might turn deadly – revealing shocking statistics like how strangulation history increases murder risk by 750%, and firearm access raises that risk to 1100%. She details the often-overlooked signs of dangerous situations and explains how technology has become both protector and weapon in modern divorce cases.
Perhaps most compelling is the discussion of trauma-informed approaches to divorce. "Being trauma informed really means thinking about...in the old way it was what's wrong with you and now it's what happened to you," Kristina explains. This perspective shift helps clients process their experiences, manage court appearances, and ultimately focus forward: "Where are we going to be in six months? Where are we going to be in five years?"
Ready to transform your understanding of the divorce journey? Listen now to discover why the future of family law demands more than just legal expertise – it requires compassionate, specialized emotional support for lasting healing.
Welcome to ATD, the All Things Divorce Podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan Merel. Welcome to the All Things Divorce Podcast. This is season one, episode three. I'm your host, Jonathan Merel. Divorce lawyer, owner of Merel Family Law. I am very excited about today's episode. We've had a couple of different guests on in the past. They were both great when it came to Melissa and Mitch. Really excited about this week because I think we have what I believe is one of the most important hires that this firm has ever made and I think it's a groundbreaking hire, not for the firm but really the family law industry as a whole, and I'm not just talking locally, I'm talking nationwide, worldwide. At Merel Family Law we are one of, if not the only, family law firm that has an in-house divorce coach and I'm happy to introduce today our special guest, our in-house divorce coach here at Merel Family Law, Kristina Lindsay. Welcome to the show.
Kristina Lindsay:Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here, yeah.
Jonathan Merel:I'm really excited that you're here. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Your background we can get into, obviously how you joined the firm and how I basically stalked you until you would talk to me on Instagram. And finally, here we are today, but tell us about your background, how's your career start and how you got to where we are today.
Kristina Lindsay:Absolutely Well. I'm really excited to be here. I started out as a certified domestic violence professional. I've had that qualification since 2016, working in the legal system, in the court system, assisting survivors and obtaining orders of protection. Also worked in the hospital systems with survivors as well. Really, the common thread that I saw there that was linking all of this together is post-separation abuse. A lot of survivors were experiencing that and there was just this vast emptiness in terms of information and support for them Right. So through that, I obtained my certification as a high conflict divorce coach, started my own practice and then have happily found myself here.
Jonathan Merel:Here we are, so to our audience, a lot of people you know they're not necessarily familiar with what a divorce coach is. You might have heard the term Even today. You know people don't necessarily know what a divorce coach is. Does the training? You are a certified divorce coach. And while you touched on, obviously, the aspects of domestic violence, which you've specialized in, divorce coaches don't necessarily just deal with domestic violence. They deal with really helping someone go through a divorce when it comes to knowing how it goes, the emotional impact. But I guess my question to you is what is a divorce coach to people that don't know?
Kristina Lindsay:coach to people that don't know. Absolutely, it's a great question because it is a newer field, it is recognized by the American Bar Association and it's burgeoning. I think that, really, what we're doing here is really the way of the future. But what a divorce coach does is really we're an expert guide, to walk alongside somebody in the process, help keep them focused. A lot of our clients, one of the most important things on their mind, in addition to safety and how their children are going to cope, is the financial piece of it really, and we can really be there to help take some of the burden off of the attorneys in terms of that emotional load that a lot of clients are going to have. Yes, that's huge. Yeah, and we work on boundaries, we work on co-parenting, different strategies and communication. As you know, that's half the battle.
Jonathan Merel:Yeah, I mean you cover so much and since, obviously, having you on, we joined the firm last year, I've been educated so much about what you're capable of. And I mean just a little background about how all this came about. You know, as someone who has owned and run a family law firm for 16 years now, I was always like, obviously, lawyers that go through or that do family law, they wear their lawyer hat, but we're also required to put on like our, you know, not therapist, but essentially a therapist hat. And you know, I don't think lawyers and law firms that do family law are necessarily trained enough to deal with the emotional aspect of divorce, the part of divorce that isn't the legal part of it, because while we are helping people get through a process that deals with finances and children, we're often left to, you know, deal with the emotional aspect of it, and divorce lawyers are not trained to do that.
Kristina Lindsay:Right, that can be really taxing.
Jonathan Merel:Yeah, and I was always looking to fill that void Like why should this just be attorneys that these people are turning to Right, when these clients can have another resource built into our law firm? Which is why I thought, wow, divorce coach sounds perfect, right? So, you know, I was scouring LinkedIn for the right person. I came across you you live, you know, nearby in the Chicago area, which fit perfectly and obviously we started talking and the rest is history.
Kristina Lindsay:But I guess what I've learned and tell me, if you agree, is not only are you an amazing, resource for our clients who have someone to talk to, but for, as a divorce lawyer, to be able to the table, in terms of trauma-informed care, the dynamics of domestic abuse and really the mindset of a client. So I'll spend a lot of that time with the client and they might be disclosing things to me that they're not necessarily telling their attorney, and so I'm able to then fill the gaps with you, and then you all provide the excellent legal strategy I mean it really has been.
Jonathan Merel:It just makes complete sense and you know, obviously, as we've gotten you more involved with our clients, it's it's just made more sense how natural the relationship feels and I can tell you firsthand like our clients have been so thrilled to work with you and we've actually had people calling about you know the fact that they're so interested in our firm because we offer this. I just think, as far as family law as a whole is concerned and you touched on this earlier before this has to be the future. I mean, why wouldn't law firms have someone like you involved, not necessarily as someone who's, like you know, an outside third party, but you're as integral a part of the representation and the experience of a divorce and helping clients as an attorney, don't you agree?
Kristina Lindsay:Right, right, and I think it's really invaluable and it makes so much sense because it's really the most intimate part of somebody's life. It's their marriage, it's their finances, their children and there's going to be an emotional toll to that. That, honestly, is just a huge ask of a family law attorney, and you guys all do a great job, honestly, with the compassion levels that I see here, you obviously help with that.
Jonathan Merel:But you know another thing that you and I have talked about it's not necessarily just people who are going through the divorce Like. We've had a lot of conversations with people who are considering the next step of divorce, the contemplation phase, yes.
Jonathan Merel:You know we've touched on that before, but you've talked to a ton of people who, whether they've gone through years and years of abuse or you know, are dealing with a narcissist Right. You're a great resource for them, making the decision for them or forcing them to get divorced, but you're giving a perspective that lawyers, in consulting with potential clients, don't necessarily give.
Kristina Lindsay:Right, and if you think about it, it's just natural when you are contemplating divorce it's not usually just like I'm going to do this and I'm going to do it now. It takes time, right. And so having somebody that a client can bounce that off of and I really do understand those dynamics that are in play when there is a narcissist or some type of coercive control I think it's really important and I always really center it back to my work as a domestic violence advocate too and knowing that it takes the average survivor seven different attempts to leave, and so if you kind of go in with that mindset when you're working with people, the odds are they will be back. If they're not back, you know, tomorrow it might be a month, it might be a year, but it is a crazy stat Six, seven times for the average survivor to leave.
Jonathan Merel:There's a lot of barriers for people, crazy stat and it's actually horribly sad if you think about it, it is.
Jonathan Merel:Well, look, we got a bunch of stuff to get into. I know we've talked already, but obviously we deal with a lot of high conflict divorces here and whether that be through, like I'd mentioned before, narcissists, abusers, drug users, usually when people are getting divorced, you know, it doesn't always have to be a horrible situation, but oftentimes we deal with situations that become extremely high conflict volatile. I guess for our audience out there, what do you define as a high conflict divorce and how does a high conflict divorce differ from, like your regular divorce?
Kristina Lindsay:Right, I think you know you do have your percentages of divorces that are, you know, fairly agreeable.
Kristina Lindsay:People can come to the table and really put the interests of the children first, and that's fantastic.
Kristina Lindsay:I think what we see a lot of and even if a divorce might not be traditionally high conflict, it might feel high conflict for a small period of time, let's say, and then things can smooth out. For the other portion of it, though, that are truly high conflict what we're really seeing is post separation abuse. That's really the hallmark of a high conflict divorce. So what that means is that, definitely, if there's been abuse in the relationship and it really could be coercive control, which is kind of, I think of it as like the foundation of the relationship, where there's gaslighting, manipulation, insults, isolation from family and friends and just a fear that is instilled in the abused person, where they, you know, have to toe the line. They're not free in the way that you or I may be free, and so that then translates into post-separation abuse. And so what we see are, you know, somebody utilizing the legal system in a vexatious way or not following court orders. They might ramp up stalking, harassment, using the children as pawns, false claims of parental alienation.
Jonathan Merel:All these things make up what are part of a high conflict. Absolutely yeah. I mean it's interesting. I mean just going back to the abuse thing. I mean you and I have talked to people and I mean, as anyone who's practiced divorce law or have done what you've done in domestic violence, it's just really shocking at how hard it is for people who are victims of abuse, how hard it is for them to leave.
Jonathan Merel:I mean you know as an attorney and obviously you and I talking to people just the horrible, horrible situations that people are in that to an outsider who's in you know hopefully a healthy, you know life and marriage and relationships, to look at these people and what they go through and the fact that they still often even sympathize with the abuser. I mean that is just. It's so sad and I'm sure you've seen it a million times.
Kristina Lindsay:Yeah, there's a trauma bonding that happens there, where you know, and then also, if somebody is truly afraid for their life, it's really hard to separate out and see leaving as a viable option. And really I want to highlight financial abuse, because that's one of the main things, the main barriers that I know you've seen over and over, where it makes it really difficult for people to leave.
Jonathan Merel:Yeah, all right, getting to my next question. Obviously, you work a ton in domestic violence. Yeah, all right, getting to my next question. Obviously, you work a ton in domestic violence. What's your thoughts on how the court system itself? Obviously, no court system, no justice system, is perfect, but when it comes to, you know, the issues of protecting victims of domestic violence, or you know even both sides I mean people you know, manipulating the system to, you know, put innocent people in bad situations, which I've seen. I guess what do you? What are your thoughts on how the system itself works and where it fails when it comes to the issues of domestic violence?
Kristina Lindsay:Right. I think you know we have had the progress right in Cook County having the domestic violence division. That's a great thing, right. In some ways it's almost prolonged that separation or capitalized on that separation of family court really not being the avenue or being comfortable for people to express the domestic violence that's happened to them. And when you're thinking about family court I mean intimate partner violence, family violence. It's all kind of goes hand in hand, is really difficult to separate. So that's one of the ways. And then I think the biggest way probably is the idea, which is false idea, that someone who has abused their partner that that has no implication on how they're going to parent Right their partner, that that has no implication on how they're going to parent Right they're still going to be a fantastic parent and that that bond is, you know, more important for the parent versus, like the children's safety. I think that's where we find a lot of issues.
Jonathan Merel:Yeah, and again, just to touch on the other side, of course, like domestic violence, division is huge and the vast majority of cases, you know you have someone being protected. What's unfortunate on the flip side that I alluded to before, sometimes people take advantage of the system when it comes to orders of protection. I mean, I've seen people you know obviously you have the right to go in and seek an order of protection without informing the other side, and while that's, of course, necessarily and crucial to protecting people from abusers, you've seen people manipulated and even the person doing the abusing even go in and get an order of protection Absolutely being abused. Next thing, you know they're served with an order of protection a divorce, they're kicked out of their house and someone who might have been the primary caretaker of the kids can't see their kids for three weeks, which is terrifying and unfortunately there's always going to be bad actors. And of course, you know orders of protection and the DVA does more good than it does harm, but it's unfortunate that we see things like that come up as well.
Kristina Lindsay:Yes, when I was a legal advocate, we had these little cubicles and we had both parties and we realized both parties were there and we're like we got to separate them. So, it definitely happens. I like to say I have a sixth sense on this stuff.
Jonathan Merel:I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. All right, let's go and talk about a little safety and strategy. You're certified in lethality risk assessment, and why don't you explain? You know what that is and what are the warning signs that a divorce could go from regular to dangerous.
Kristina Lindsay:Right. So yes, I am a certified assessor in the danger assessment, which is a weighted lethality risk assessment tool. It was developed out of John Hopkins and it's used in hospitals by law enforcement. My dream is to see it used in family court, because it is a great tool.
Jonathan Merel:Yeah, what is? Tell us what that is Like. How does it work? Because I think most people don't understand. Even divorce lawyers I don't think understand.
Kristina Lindsay:Sure. So you know it's basically a list of questions. It's been research-based, so they're weighted. So to become an assessor, you have to do training and then you get access to this online system where it's a list of questions that you're going to ask your client. You're asking them if they've disclosed something that's leading you to believe that maybe their life is at risk. So we're looking for things such as strangulation. That's a huge one and we know so many people who've experienced that who don't go to police people who've experienced that who don't go to police. It's really considered one of the perfect crime for an abuser because there's a lot of hidden homicides that occur with that. But we know that if a client has experienced that, that they're 750 times more likely to be murdered by that partner. And if there's a firearm, that risk goes up to 1100% more of a risk. So definitely I'm looking for that and I you know, because I'm trauma informed like most people aren't coming and saying, hey, I was strangled.
Kristina Lindsay:Right, they're saying choked or you know, there's other ways to kind of get that out. Right, I'm looking for firearms, I'm looking. If they have children not in common co-occurring addiction, and then the over enmeshment is a really big one. So when you have a client say you know he sees me as property, the children are pawns, those are all signs that someone's life might be at risk.
Jonathan Merel:Yeah, I mean they really should. I mean these are terms that regular family law attorneys don't really hear in the context of divorce and dealing with custody disputes. I mean, yes, obviously that's heavily, I'm sure, discussed and talked about in domestic violence courts but it hasn't made a huge amount of headway. And I mean a lot of these terms are foreign to me and probably my colleagues, I assume, and you'd think they'd come more into play, especially when you have cases that involve domestic violence that turn into, ultimately, experts doing custody evaluations and you know they do a lot of psychological testing but there's not really these lethality scales which would, of course, have a huge impact on custody determinations. But you would think it would make more of an appearance and make more headway in family law, but we just haven't seen it.
Kristina Lindsay:I would love that and I think one of the reasons is that you know they're deciding custody and everything like that versus really looking at the abuse that's happened to the partner.
Jonathan Merel:Right.
Kristina Lindsay:And we know that there you can't really separate that out.
Jonathan Merel:Sure, all right, keeping on the same safety and making sure you know clients are, you know, dealing with the abuse appropriately. How do you help clients? Safety plan you know we hear a lot about a safety plans when it comes to agencies like DCFS and child protective services. But when you're giving advice to victims and you know perhaps this is, you know, without a divorce pending, or in the middle of a divorce or at the outset of a divorce, how do you help them? Safety plan and you know how does it get tricky when there are children involved.
Kristina Lindsay:Yeah. So it's really an essential component to everything I do. I come to pretty much every session because, honestly, most of my clients are experiencing some type of concern, you know, with that in mind, and it's just part and parcel of what I do, so I'm going to ask them questions about different things going on. A lot of things that we see an uptick in would be like electronic monitoring, gps monitoring. I've had clients where, you know, the Apple AirTag is under the car seat that's smart, yeah. And you know, a baby monitor in the vent listening Right, there's always things going on.
Kristina Lindsay:Or a partner, let's say, who won't change the Wi-Fi password. They're real reluctant. You know it's tips to go in, take your phone, get a factory reset done, the person have access to your devices. If you find something, what do you do? You don't rip it out, because then it notifies them that you found it. So we kind of go through all of those different things. It's, of course, different if someone's in the home with the person. It's avoid the bathrooms, avoid the kitchens those are hard surfaces, knives, things like that.
Kristina Lindsay:But when we're bringing children into it too, in terms of this we're thinking about the big things like where are exchanges taking place? Is it curbside? Does it need to be at a police station? How are we going to give children agency? One of my passions is the rights of children and the right that children have to be safe and free from abuse, and so I really work with my protective parents on coming up with different ways, depending on the age of the children, to try to develop agency for the kids. Is it getting them that smartphone? Do they have a gizmo watch? What are we going to do to do small things so that they can have a bit of a safety net?
Jonathan Merel:and it's crazy, you touched on technology and you really hit on it yourself. Technology, when it comes to this, can really be a double-edged sword. While it'll you know, can, of course, protect children, give them access to you know, to the other parent that's not that they're not with or having you know the ability of a parent to see where the kids are, or always kind of be able to reach out to them, on the flip side, it allows that control, that stalking element, that tracking every move, seeing where everybody is. I mean, you know, we've I've seen tons of divorce cases where someone's put a GPS tracker on someone's car because they think they're cheating. I mean, you know, while, again, technology is great, it could also be used for the wrong purposes, which you know can result in more stalking, more abuse and more control. That couldn't be exhibited, you know, 10, 20 years ago.
Jonathan Merel:Absolutely so that's something that you know, we always have seen and again, with technology being a good thing for the most part, it could also be used to really do some creepy things when someone is a controlling, abusive person.
Kristina Lindsay:Absolutely.
Jonathan Merel:All right, Our last segment. We're going to talk about empowerment, trauma-informed healing. You use a trauma-informed approach. Why is this critical? Especially for high-conflict divorce clients, Right, why is this critical especially?
Kristina Lindsay:for high conflict divorce clients Right.
Kristina Lindsay:It's just a fantastic way to approach cases. Being trauma informed really means thinking about you know, in the old way it was what's wrong with you and now it's what happened to you. So you know, the fact we're honoring that people have walked through a lot of trauma when they're coming to us, the fact we're honoring that people have walked through a lot of trauma when they're coming to us, it really allows me to be able to understand where our clients are coming from and be able to empower them and really, from a nonjudgmental point of view, I think that's really essential. I also help people to normalize their feelings.
Kristina Lindsay:A lot of times they might feel I get told all the time I feel like I'm crazy or I don't think this is as bad, what happened to me, is it bad? And being able to kind of say that's a coping mechanism, it's. You know, people normalize abuse when you're living in it as a way to survive it Right, and so kind of understanding that and giving people that foundation that we're in this together, we're going to work together to get you to that next point is really essential.
Jonathan Merel:And that's crucial.
Jonathan Merel:I mean again, the fact that my firm has you as a resource and as part of the firm is.
Jonathan Merel:I can't even tell you all the reasons why it's great and why it works, because I mean just something else you just talked about. I mean when people come to talk to lawyers they can get intimidated. You know I talked to thousands of people over my career and sure, some are quick to open up but like those people where you know lawyers ultimately get this sixth sense like something's off here and you're trying to kind of dig and dig as a lawyer just to kind of get the facts, but you're kind of not. You can tell the person's kind of closing up. You obviously have the skills and I think people are more comfortable with you because you're not an attorney that it's much easier for them to you know kind of divulge things that they might've been embarrassed or scared to talk about. And you know that's why I love having you in on intakes and then ultimately the client will schedule another session with you. That, you know, often lends us much more information and by collaborating together it's just so much more helpful. That's what I think is great.
Kristina Lindsay:I think it's fantastic too, the PTSD element. We do have a lot of clients that come in with that and that can result in, you know, executive functioning being a little bit off. Maybe it's really difficult to get that FAA completed, you know, and I can help kind of bridge that gap and like let's set these goals so that you can get these materials over to your attorney For sure.
Jonathan Merel:And again, divorce coaching. You know we've talked a lot about dealing with domestic violence, the emotional aspect of it. There's more to it. Like you know how divorce cases go, you know how to. You know tell people to get prepared for a court appearance or a deposition, even down to like what you should wear or things you should be thinking about. You know how to kind of control your emotions if you're on the witness stand Again, things that overlap with you know lawyers preparing people for court appearances and testimony. But you bring a different aspect to it that I think clients are just comfortable talking to you about things. So it's not just the domestic violence, it's not just the emotional impact which of course, is a ton of it but it's those other parts of the process that you can help them with.
Kristina Lindsay:Yes, and it's super important. It's like correspondence with your ex Super difficult. One of my secret weapons is, you know, drafting correspondence for OFW for our clients, exactly. It takes that emotional burden off and really can just allow for someone to set boundaries, to feel more in control and ultimately focus forward, cause that's always my goal. Where are we going to be in six months? Where are we going to be in six months? Where are we going to be in five years? Like we're looking positive, we're looking ahead, exactly.
Jonathan Merel:All right. Well, we've talked about some amazing topics. I think we covered top to bottom everything that comes with a divorce coach, how it relates to things you're doing with our firm. Obviously, to wrap things up, it's just really been a godsend to have you here, to have you join the firm, to really be the pioneers in the family law industry when it comes to really progressively moving the field ahead from a family law standpoint, from a legal standpoint in general. I just think this is the next frontier when it comes to family law and dealing with clients who are going through horrible times.
Jonathan Merel:It's not just about lawyer and client. It's about dealing with more than that. We know people are going through more than just the legal battle. They're going through the battle in their minds. That's where you come in. You bridge the gap for us. It helps us, it helps the client. It's really just a perfect marriage. No pun intended, but it's been great to have you on. Obviously, if you want to reach us Kristina Lindsay, she's on LinkedIn, she's on social media, Merel Family Law you know where to find us. We'll be doing this more, but anyone who is going through a tough time whether it be domestic violence, a difficult marriage, just a tough time. They can reach out to Kristina. You can reach out to us. We'll connect you with Kristina, but thank you for coming on and I think that's a wrap you.
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